There’s only one answer to this endless mania of a deranged, uneducated individual who thinks killing a whole bunch of people will solve all his problems.

If just one other person in that church, movie theatre, mall or school had legally been carrying a gun, maybe there would have been only two deaths, the perpetrator being one of them.

We need to bring back our right of self-protection. Waiting for the police to arrive is deadly.

(62) comments

Mad Mac

100% RIGHT, Diane. [thumbup]

You are a "sheep dog", protector of the "sheep" from the "wolf" (no insult to canine wolves).

Now stand by for the anti freedom, anti Constitution, "sheeple" to start their pro nanny state whining, "Save me because I'm too weak to protect my children all by myself" and "Guns are too scary", and "It's the GUN'S FAULT it's used for crime" to commence.

TheKid

...Jerad and Amanda Miller in June 2014 killed two armed, on-duty police officers.
...Four men tried to rob She's a Pistol, a gun store and shooting range that offers self-defense courses geared toward women. The store's owner, John Bieker, 44, was shot and later died” [2]
...Six gun owners were killed by their own dogs. [3]
...”Gun Owner Shot and Killed by Two-Year Old” [4]
...Cleveland police look for gun owner after toddler kills one-year-old [5]
...Whoops: Responsible Gun Owner ‘Accidentally’ Kills Wife While Cleaning Gun In The Kitchen [6]
…Cherokee Co. boy, 11, killed by dad cleaning gun [8]
...5-year-old boy finds gun, shoots baby brother in head [8]
...St. Louis Woman Accidentally Kills Herself With Gun She Bought For Possible Ferguson Unrest [9]

If everyone was armed there would be a shootout between people who didn't realize a “good guy” just shoot a “bad guy.” And how would the police know who was a “good guy with a gun” or a killer?

Gun accidents are so common because many semi-automatics, like double action only, have no safeties and it seems like most gun owner keep a round in the chamber. “Gun control was quite common in the old west, and successful. Typically guns were turned into the sheriff's office when entering town, and picked up on the way out.” [10]

The best trained American security force – the Secret Service – was unable to protect President Ronald Reagan or Senator Robert Kennedy.

“A recent meta-analysis of 16 studies examined the relationship between firearms and gun deaths. Gun ownership doubled the risk of homicide and tripled the risk of suicide. This research is bolstered by a national survey that found that a gun in the home was far more likely to be used to threaten a family member or intimate partner than to be used in self-defense.” [11]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Las_Vegas_shootings
[2] www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/owner-killed-three-shot-attempted-robbery-gun-shop-n283326
[3] http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/mans-worst-enemy-6-negligent-gun-owners-who-were-shot-their-own-dogs
[4] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/30/1354773/-Gun-Owner-Shot-and-Killed-by-Two-Year-Old
[5] http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/13/cleveland-toddler-shooting-gun-owner-charges
[6] http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/03/17/washington-gun-owner-accidentally-kills-wife-while-cleaning-gun-video/
[7] http://www.myfoxal.com/story/28119256/sheriff-cherokee-co-boy-11-killed-by-dad-cleaning-gun
[8] http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/us/missouri-boy-shoots-baby-brother/
[9] http://www.politicususa.com/2014/11/24/st-louis-woman-accidentally-kills-gun-bought-ferguson-unrest.html
[10] http://www.quora.com/How-common-were-gun-draw-duels-in-the-Wild-West
[11 ] http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/01/good_guy_with_a_gun_myth_guns_increase_the_risk_of_homicide_accidents_suicide.2.html

Mad Mac

Hiya Kid, long time no see. [beam] Hope you're well.

Sorry to burst your bubble, [unsure]but....research, live, and learn;

Accidental gun deaths since 1Jan15= 346
Gun homocides since 1Jan15= 6,895
Gun suicides since 1Jan15= 9,099

Compared to;

Suffocation deaths since 1Jan15= 24,528
Poison deaths since 1Jan15= 20,092
Traffic deaths since 1Jan15= 24,528
Falling deaths since 1Jan15= 11,227

Guns USED IN SELF DEFENSE= 1,307,552
YEE-OWCH!! That's a LOT of SAFE SELF DEFENSE! [scared]

http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml
http://jpfo.org/
--------------------------------------

"Gun accidents are so common because many semi-automatics, like double action only, have no safeties..."[huh]

You obviously have NO IDEA regarding the REQUIRED BUILT IN SAFETY MECHS on ALL "modern" firearms, Kid. Even revolvers.
Internal hammer locks mostly, for modern semis, mostly "sliders."
Even a "hammer drop" which scares the [censored] outta me!

Have you forgotten the safeties from your "Nam days?"
Our old sidearms (designed @ 1911) had 3..."half-kock" ring a bell?
Maybe you haven't picked up a more modern firearm since?
Referring to some pre 1940's maybe?
Or referring to "back-yard" manufactured for personal use?
(Yes, it IS federally allowed, some commie states outlawed them)
Search the net before the big biz anti USA puppet golfer in chief pushes thru his plan outlawing all firearm info, incl reloading facts, safe handling, cleaning, history, and repair guides. obozo REEKS!
--------------------------------------

"“A recent meta-analysis of 16 studies..."
ALL debunked by John Lott's recent FACTUAL studies dissecting, utilizing, and exposing those poor excuses for researchers OWN reports of "kinda-almost-maybe half true facts".
If memory serves, a couple of your refs were honest enough to ADMIT their "findings" were only suppositions, projections, and guesses at best. It's in the footnotes, page 10 or so.

Try researching John Lott's name, he has a BRAND NEW SITE w/all his research. You should donate cash to him for enlightening you with his hard work. I did.
If you have any trouble, I'll give you the links, IF YOU PROMISE to at least honestly read John Lott's work and tell me what you think.
Research this site also, there was some VERY EXTENSIVE research and myth debunking, reported by "Protect OUR Constitution", "JH", and SO MANY OTHERS, incl myself, dating a few years back, around Sandy Hook time.

Also see;

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20120406/california-brady-campaign-admits-gun-laws-dont-work

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20120406/violence-policy-center-more-like-violence-policy-joke

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150703/in-albuquerque-another-one-of-those-rare-self-defense-shootings

http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/30/anti-gun-rahm-emanuels-yard-sign-warns-burglars-that-he-has-armed-secret-service/

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150709/diverse-chicagoans-exercise-their-right-to-carry

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150626/judge-slams-brady-campaign-for-frivolous-lawsuit-that-costs-plaintiffs-over-200k

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150418/brady-centers-attorneys-withdraw-from-case-under-cloud-of-ethical-lapses

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20120914/as-terrorists-murder-americans-overseas-brady-campaign-not-sure-america-is-greatest-nation-on-earth
-------------------------------------------

Here are just a FEW links to armed law abiding Citizens LEGALLY and SAFELY(for the Citizens[beam]-NOT the violent thugs) protecting themselves and others, incl helping the Police.
Follow them to the SEVERAL HUNDRED PAGES, multiples of THOUSANDS, of other examples taken mostly from local news. Specifically NOT reported and specifically IGNORED by the obozo propaganda distribution and cheering presstitutes, owned by obugger-brain's masters;

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/aff_201502/index.php#/40

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150707/former-cnn-anchor-after-self-defense-shooting-if-you-don-t-want-to-carry-please-don-t

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150206/eleven-year-old-thwarts-home-invasion

http://www.koco.com/news/armed-citizen-saves-officer-who-was-being-attacked/32985180?utm_campaign=KOCO%205%20News&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_source=Social

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b8cca97f0ef04ff0949a89cf79a698f3/cops-hail-man-who-fatally-shoots-suspect-outside-utah-store?utm_campaign=Snip.ly-Button&utm_medium=Organic&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=cops-hail

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150127/homeowner-repels-a-pair-of-violent-home-invaders-khou-houston-texas-012615-kprc-houston-texas-012615

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20141211/veterans-45-frightens-off-thieves-the-gaston-gazette-gaston-county-nc-120514

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130326/woman-fights-off-two-home-invaders-wral-raleigh-nc-032213

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20131017/permit-holder-thwarts-robbery-the-independent-tribune-concord-nc-100913

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130814/resident-of-student-apartment-complex-fights-off-home-invader-wtvd-raleigh-nc-08213-the-news-observer-raleigh-nc-081013

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130911/armed-driver-stops-carjackers-wect-wilmington-nc090513

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140926/good-guy-with-a-gun-prevents-second-beheading-in-oklahoma-business

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130201/homeowner-fells-wanted-criminal-the-news-star-shawnee-okla-013113

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20131015/homeowner-halts-burglary-the-tulsa-world-tulsa-okla-101213

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20131015/homeowner-halts-burglary-the-tulsa-world-tulsa-okla-101213

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150630/pizza-delivery-driver-halts-robbery-the-sun-sentinel-palm-beach-fla-062415

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150617/pharmacist-scares-off-robber-kctv-kansas-city-mo-060915

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20120111/oklahoma-womens-interest-in-firearms-rising

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/guns-at-hand-a-prison-town-traces-a-manhunt-for-escaped-killers/ar-BBl0vLr?ocid=mailsignout

I'll just stop here, this has to be close to 100 lines already.[scared]
Happy link checking/reading.[beam]
----------------------------------------

Here's some GOOD NEWS for us law abiding Californians, not so much for the violent thugs tho;

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150326/california-the-battle-for-shall-issue-is-on

TheKid

In 2008 when NY City police fire at an armed suspect they hit the suspect 34% of the time. When NY City police shoot at a dog they hit the dog 55% of the time. “ John C. Cerar, a retired deputy inspector who was the commander of the Police Department’s firearms training section from 1985 to 1994, said the accuracy rate is comparable to that of many other major police departments. In some cases, it is better.

In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year [2007], they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said.

So far this year the hit ratio in Los Angeles is 31 percent, with 74 of 237 bullets fired by officers hitting the target.” [1]

When the NYC Police shoot Amadou Diallo at very close range they fired 410 shots but only hit Diallo 19 times. [2]

New York State Police receive a 90-hour course in the Basic School and firearm training continues throughout one's career with semi-annual, in-service Field Firearms Training sessions of five hours each. [3] There is a detailed analysis of police shooting and markmanship. If a suspect is more than 21 feet away, there is little chance of being hit.

In the Army “to earn an Army Marksmanship Qualification Badge for Pistol at the Combat Pistol Qualification Course, one must have a combined hit count of 26 out of 30 for expert, 21 out of 30 for sharpshooter, and 16 out of 30 for marksman on firing tables one through five.” The targets range from 10 meters out to 31 meters away. Nsome targets pop up. A shooter can have as little as two seconds to aim.[5]

In real live situations only experienced and well trained shoot have any chance of hitting a target. What happens if you miss the “bad guy'? In a crowded room you probably shoot an innocent bystander. With some pistols and high powered ammo the bullet might go through the “bad guy” and still injure or kill and innocent person.

I guess it's too much trouble to require through background checks with have to be renewed each year. And god forbid the firearms industry stops selling military weapons to civilians. After all, you never know when you might have to fight off invaders from China or Martians looking for women or revolt against our own government.

Hey Mac, how many guns are stolen by criminals? How many people get the same level of training and experience as the police and the military?

If guns have been used 1,307,552 times in self defense why aren't these gunshot criminals getting hospital care? See this Harvard study on gun use.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo
[3] https://www.troopers.ny.gov/Academy/Firearms/
[4] http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badges_%28United_States%29#United_States_Army

TheKid

My combination of poor typing and dyslexia got the best of me in my last post.

The NYC Police shot at Amadou Diall 41 times at very close range. He was hit 19 times. “More than a dozen bullet holes scarred the walls and an inner door of the vestibule; others were found near apartment doors, and one lodged in the living room wall of Diallo's first-floor apartment.” [1]

When John Hinckley, Jr. attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan there were 66 Secret Service agents and an unknown number of policemen around Reagan. The good guys with guns didn't stop the bad guy with a gun. [2]

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/unarmed-amadou-diallo-shot-killed-police-1999-article-1.2095255
[2] http://inthesecretservice.com/reagan-assassination-attempt/

Mad Mac

I'm very disappointed, Kid.[crying]
You obviously have NOT even glanced at my refs,have you? [sad]
I checked your priors and replied. I did this time too. [beam]
Why won't you look at mine and comment on them?[whistling]
Oh well. I'll try again. [unsure]
Please go to my prior posted refs, and at LEAST glance at the facts and fact based research I carefully presented you.
Then check my additional refs below.
I'm very interested in you telling me what you think and any fact based oppositions you may have on my research/refs. [beam]
---------------------------------------------
Surely you're not saying to disarm cops, are you?
Instead LEOs should be better trained re/firearm accuracy (like Marines). Especially their Oath to our Constitution above all else.

CWP holders ARE more accurate than LEOs, generally speaking.

PLEASE READ THIS E-Z TO FIND ARTICLE for why;
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/who-are-the-greater-threats-to-public-safety-police-or-carry-permit-holders/
-----------------------------------------
Instead of asking, "What happens if you miss the “bad guy'?" , you should be asking, "How many lives are saved WHEN YOU DON'T MISS?" [whistling]
That VIOLENT thug intending murder is NOT gonna stop 'til he's forced to. Somehow I think spitting, crying, and begging is NOT gonna "do the trick."
Don't you agree? [unsure]
---------------------------------------------
You've obviously not kept up w/ammo tech improvements for the last 40 years or better. NO INSULT INTENDED, just an observation/supposition regarding your outdated statements.
If you had kept up, you'd know about "frangibles", "glassers"(sic), "tubulars", black talons & such SPECIFICALLY DEVELOPED to overcome "pass thrus" on bodies and walls, amongst other reasons.
DOJ rounds in .380 are now reputed to have the stopping power of a .45, no kick, no pass thru.
------------------------------------------
Back ground checks, firearm safety and responsibility, and our God given Rights incl personal privacy are HOT TOPICS w/me.

I support immediate nullification of all gun "laws" within 3 years max, while preforming required MANDATORY background checks and intensive firearm safety courses for EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN, hoplophobic anti-gun nut or not, at age 16, 25, and 50.

When you PASS, as you will Kid, you are issued a "NOT NUTSO" card allowing you to walk into ANY store or yard sale ANYWHERE and ON-THE-SPOT buy ANY FIREARMS, ammo, or weapons of any kind you desire, same day, NO RECORD and NO REGISTRATION REQUIRED.
After all, you're a law biding mentally balanced card carrying Citizen, right? [unsure]
We're ONLY trying to build a safer society, right? [unsure]
No BOR infringement intended, right?[unsure]
Don't wanna grab any guns, right, so why should you care what guns ANY law abiding, non violent Citizen owns? NOT your biz.
Or mine! Unless there IS an ulterior motive!

So, what's EXACTLY WRONG w/punishing the guilty VIOLENT thug for his very own personal, individual VIOLENT actions, and leaving the rest of us ALONE?
WHY would ANY sensible, reasonable, semi-intelligent, above 10 years old, desire to punish LAW ABIDING, non violent, non connected Citizens for the actions of crazies and VIOLENT thugs?
If someone can't understand the reasonableness and logic of my 2 above questions, they would DEFINITELY FAIL the mental part of the "NOT nutso" test, possibly resulting in being committed.

Transfer a firearm IN ANY WAY to a NON ("NOT nutso") card holder? Punishable by public hanging.
Steal a firearm for violent use? Public hanging.
Use a firearm in a VIOLENT crime? Public hanging.
Serial VIOLENT criminal possessing firearm? Public hanging.
Heavy penalties are highly detrimental to firearm enhanced violence, and economical. Ropes can be reused. Tickets could be sold to cover expenses, but who'd wanna watch that?
Why should we be forced to pay for the care of rabid, unfeeling animals VIOLENTLY ATTACKING and MURDERING us?
If you DON'T pass due to your VIOLENT criminal history?
NO CARD.
VIOLENT criminal activity w/a firearm between checks? Revocation of card plus 20 years AT HARD LABOR.

Stop a violent crime w/a firearm w/out once missing the thug?
FREE TRIP TO DISNEYLAND, or a cash equivalent reward.
Miss the violent thug? YOU are responsible for damages, IAW a jury of your peers.

If you DON'T pass due to mental problems, NO CARD, and administrative suspension of 2nd Amendment Rights ONLY until reviewed by high Court. Plus subject to forced institutionalization
IF mental defect is serious enough.

This satisfies our Bill of Rights GUARANTEED under our Constitution, satisfies the hoplophobic anti gun nutcases IF THEY TRULY are concerned ONLY w/society's safety (as they bleat), and cares for the mental defectives hurting themselves and others ACCIDENTALLY. Utopia, a peace loving, law abiding non violent society, maximum freedom, minimum laws. Love for ALL.

Of course, this common sense approach will NEVER pass!
Gun control IS ALL ABOUT OPPRESSION, CONTROLLING LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, and NOTHING ELSE!
------------------------------------
"...why aren't these gunshot criminals getting hospital care?"
Who says they're not?
Your ref says they ARE.
Not every gunshot wound requires a hosp visit, as you know.
I thought you said you were a Nam combat vet?
If so, then you already KNOW that's true, don't you?
--------------------------------------------
Did you carefully READ and understand your ref?
My 1st quote is from the intro.
My next few footnote quotes (saying the same thing) were listed MULTIPLE times in that ref, to try and trick readers, and make it look "sciency", and "documented"![lol][lol][lol] FAIL!![lol][lol]
My last quote's from the text, and ridiculously short sighted.
Hope these guys kept their day job...flippin burgers..diggin holes?
Hope they're good at it,'cause as unbiased researchers they FAIL!
MISERABLY!
Intro;
"We use EPIDEMIOLOGICAL THEORY..." (caps mine)[lol]

Epidemiology=the branch of MEDICINE dealing with the incidence and prevalence of DISEASE in large populations and with detection of the source and cause of EPIDEMICS of INFECTIOUS disease.
So....liberally apply "lead" to every ebola germ 2 times at night for medical purposes, and call the doc in the morning?[huh]

Theory=best guess.
NOT fact, JUST A GUESS? [huh]
So....We GUESS you should liberally apply "lead" to every ebola germ 2 times at night for medical purposes, and call the doc in the morning?[huh]

Or maybe the "lead" is an infectious, diseased virus, instead of a soft metal? My, my, how confusing these fools are!
“Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.” Walter Scott, Marmion
(Not to mention, MEDICINE/DOCTORS kill MORE people each year than all combined firearm deaths!
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread914624/pg1)

FN 1;
"We analyzed data from two national random-digit-dial surveys..."
They RANDOMLY CALLED PEOPLE ON THE PHONE!?![lol]
FN 2;
"Results from two national surveys."
TWO PHONE SURVEYS?!? [lol] Yeah, THAT'S science![lol]
FN 3;
"national random-digit-dial telephone survey"
AGAIN? Same survey? [lol] Oh, WAIT, there were TWO surveys!
Overtime pay for sure! [whistling] They EARNED it![lol]

Text;
"We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense."
I'd MUCH rather "frighten and intimidate" a violent thug away from MY family RATHER than actually shoot them, wouldn't YOU? Besides making a mess, paying for bullets, cops take your firearm for ballistics even if you legally and in self defense shoot a known violent thug attacking you, don't you know? [unsure]

I'll stop debunking your ref here, tho there's LOTS MORE left.
That ref is a perfect example of manipulative puppeteering for casual glancers(NOT RESEARCHERS able and interested enough to research BOTH sides BEFORE developing an opinion)funded by hoplophobic socialist/proggies demanding control over us!

I THEORIZE........They ARE lennin's "useful idiot" lemmings[lol]!

Maybe I should call a few people, twice, dialing randomly, asking about my "theory" above. After I get my desired answers, I could then publish and proclaim it as a true scientific Harvard study![lol]

But at least these highly biased[censored]making the cherry picked "facts" from MINIMUM intel/effort fit their desired outcome, HONESTLY stated their "research" parameters.......IN THE FOOTNOTES of course! [angry] Where nobody checks!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Don't believe ME, Kid! [beam]
PLEASE GO HERE AND RESEARCH!
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m2/gun-murder-stats.htm
http://www.gunfacts.info/
EXAMINE and RESEARCH the footnotes.
CHASE the attached links within ANY research on ANY subject.
PROVE the facts and truth for YOURSELF.
Then please tell me where I'm wrong or have been misled.
But AT LEAST RESEARCH my refs! [beam]
-----------------------------------------------
Just for fun because I LOVE independent girls w/guns; [beam]
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/06/boyfriend-allegedly-attacks-girlfriend-chokes-her-gets-shot/

Anti Gun to AR15 Owner - One Woman's Perspective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXOs1A7EIm0

TheKid

Mac I can't believe you're in favor of keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill and convicted criminals. Haven't you read the Second Amendment? The Second Amendment says “ the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Mac are you a gun grabbing liberal?

So you think the typical handgun owner is better trained and experience than the Secret Service?

When U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot an armed bystanderer rushed to help He took the safety off his handgun and was ready to fire at a man holding a gun. But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. The man with the gun had wrested the gun away from the actual shooter. In a split second the bystander decided not to shoot. One reason why the bystander didn't pull out his own weapon was that "he didn't want to be confused as a second gunman."

“That's what happens when you run with a firearm to a scene of blood[y] havoc. In the chaos and pressure of the moment, you can shoot the wrong person. Or, by drawing your weapon, you can become the wrong person—a hero mistaken for a second gunman by another would-be hero with a gun. Bang, you're dead. Or worse, bang bang bang bang bang: a firefight among several armed, confused, and innocent people in a crowd. It happens even among trained soldiers. Among civilians, the risk is that much greater.”

I have seen through and through gunshot wounds caused by rifles. I have to defer to other opinions about the possibility of a typical pistol round going through a human body. Walmart sells mostly Full Metal Jacket ammunition. A FMJ round is very likely going to pass through a body unless it hits bone. And even if it is deflected the round can cause injury.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090903122811AA63zR4
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120413185746AApLdwU
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101113222553AAqvCFi
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=471342
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

A Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Crime Victimization Survey says, 'Guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes. In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR). That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR.
In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides.” [2]

“At least 28,000 children and teens were killed by guns over an 11-year-period. More than 450 kids didn’t make it to kindergarten. Another 2,700 or more were killed by a firearm before they could sit behind the wheel of a car. Every day, on average, seven children were shot dead. A News21 investigation of child and youth deaths in America between 2002 and 2012 found that at least 28,000 children and teens 19-years-old and younger were killed with guns. Teenagers between the ages of 15 and 19 made up over two-thirds of all youth gun deaths in America. The News21 findings are compiled in the most complete database to date from records obtained from 49 state health departments and FBI Supplementary Homicide Reports.” [3]

“Guns kept in the home are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal unintentional shooting, criminal assault or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. That is, a gun is more likely to be used to kill or injure an innocent person in the home than a threatening intruder.” [4]

“According to the U.S. Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey, an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from 2005 to 2010. Guns were recovered in only 17 percent of reported burglaries and in 15 percent of other property crimes.” [5]

According to the 2012 ATF report on stolen or lost firearms “In 2012, NCIC received reports reflecting 90,342 lost and stolen firearms nationwide. Of those 190,342 lost and stolen firearms reported, 16,667 (9% of the total reported) were the result of thefts/losses from FFLs [dealers]. Of the 16,667 firearms reported as lost or stolen from a FFL, a total of 10,915 firearms were reported as lost. The remaining 5,762 were reported as stolen.” [6] That is reported thiefs.

After a massacre in Tasmania that left 35 people dead in 1996 Australia enacted strict gun controls. Australia banned semi-automatic and automatic rifles and shotguns. The firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. [7]

[1] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41018893/ns/slate_com/t/armed-giffords-hero-nearly-shot-wrong-man/
[2] http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf
[3] http://gunwars.news21.com/2014/at-least-28000-children-and-teens-were-killed-by-guns-over-an-11-year-period/
[4] http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun-studies-statistics/gun-violence-statistics/
[5] http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun-studies-statistics/gun-violence-statistics/
[6] https://www.atf.gov/file/11851/download
[7] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/23/what-happened-after-australia-banned-lots-of-guns-after-a-massacre/

Crotalus atrox

The Kid says : "My combination of poor typing and dyslexia got the best of me in my last post"

Here Kid, I fixed it for you : "My combination of copying and pasting got the best of me in my last post"

Think for yourself kid, don't be a sheep.

Crotalus

Mad Mac

I'm very disappointed again, Kid.[sad]

You STILL have NOT even glanced at my refs YET, have you? [huh]

What are you so afraid of? [scared]

Mad Mac

Looks like Kid ran away, again.[sad]

Gee, I "theorize" I scared Kid away with undeniable verified refs, facts, and TRUE scientific studies....AGAIN.[scared]
IAW Kid's Harvard study's parameters, I could call several people twice, publish here, and he'll believe it's a "scientific fact".[huh]
I should play "Where's Kid" instead of "Where's Waldo".[beam]
Sorry Kid, just research a little BEFORE you post.[sad]

TheKid

About May 19, 2015 Mad Mac and I had this exchange [1]:

TheKid-
“Ted Nugent said this at a concert:
'Obama, he's a piece of s--t, and I told him to s--k on my machine gun. Let's hear it for him. And then I was in New York. I said, "Hey, Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless b----h. Since I'm in California, how about Barbara Boxer , she might want to s--k on my machine gun. And Dianne Feinstein, ride one of these you worthless wh--e. Any questions?'*
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mad Mac replied-
“I DO ABSOLUTELY 100% AGREE with Nugent on his statements at that concert! NUGENT!!”
TheKid wrote this:
Ted Nugent said during a concert:
“'Obama, he's a piece of s--t, and I told him to s--k on my machine gun. Let's hear it for him. And then I was in New York. I said, "Hey, Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless b----h. Since I'm in California, how about Barbara Boxer , she might want to s--k on my machine gun. And Dianne Feinstein, ride one of these you worthless wh--e. Any questions?'”
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Who cares what a man who would shove an M-16 up a woman's [female reproductive organs] thinks?

Mad Mac indeed.

[1]http://www.hidesertstar.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/article_93972d9a-fe82-11e4-9726-d3327a0fe5b6.html

Amanda Alsoomse

I like posts that are fact filled with data from many different neutral sources. Keep them coming, Kid.

When I see an emoticon studded post, I know I will see a single source for data - usually the NRA. Getting data on guns from the NRA is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry; the up side of consuming candy from the American Sugar Association; or hearing about the benefits of Oxycodone from Pfizer Pharmaceuticals.

The editor should pull posts that disrespect the President of the United States with name calling, and posts that taunt and bully other posters. They are not civil; they add nothing substantive to the conversation; and they reduce the discussion to the level of pre-school, sandbox play.

Mad Mac

Don't be mad your diversion attempt will NOT work Kid.[beam]
Just try, try, try again, I theorize.

"About May 19, 2015 Mad Mac and I had this exchange..."
Thank you for pointing that post out.[beam]
That thread(amongst many) contains several examples of Kids poor research and parroting half-truth taking points he "heard somewhere" and "felt right" so mindlessly passed them on as fact. As usual.
Kid "conveniently" left the convo after being shown the errors of his half-truth taking points, AS USUAL. [sad]

It's a pattern I am trying hard to help Kid break, w/NON aggressive and polite referrals to verified FACT, not fiction.[beam]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
C/Pd from below couple posts Kid refuses to answer....STILL;

I'm very disappointed, Kid.
You obviously have NOT even glanced at my refs,have you?
I checked your priors and replied. I did this time too.
Why won't you look at mine and comment on them?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be clear Kid, This is YOUR foul statement, not mine;
"Who cares what a man who would shove an M-16 up a woman's [female reproductive organs] thinks?"

TheKid

In the past 24 hours these stories were published in print newspapers and posted online. Some stories describe accidental shootings. Others tell of murder-suicides. I know if a suicidal person can kill themselves in other ways than with a firearm. When a suicidal person uses a handgun however the results are usually fatal. “Many more people are dying from gun suicides than gun-related homicides. Gun suicides are becoming far more common than gun-related homicides, accounting for 64 percent of all gun deaths in 2012, according to new statistics.” [1[ [2]

Then there is the question whether or not mentally disturbed people should have access to firearms. Why not establish a database of all firearm “fingerprints”. If there was a national way to identify which particular firearm fired a bullet, many shootings would be solved. If people had to pass an annual background checks to own a firearm or to buy ammunition, there would be less chance that a criminal or unstable person would possess a firearm. The recent mass shootings prove once again we need better background checks. Sensible gun control worked in Australia.

150719-ex-Marine shot and wounded with his own gun [3]
150719-Roberto Cervantes killed his father and brother, Jesus and Joel Cervantes, then took his own life in Mayfair [4]
150719-The jealous mistress of a former NFL player kidnapped his wife and fatally shot her before taking her own life [5]
150719 Teen Girl Shot In Drive-By Shooting [6]
150718- Stan Pannaman got shot with his own gun Friday night. Pannaman had a dispute with a man on the beach. The other man was a convicted felon who took away Pannaman’s gun.. The felon then shot Pannama in the abdomen. [7]
150718-A father shot his 12 and 10-year-old sons before taking his own life [8]
150718-Man murdered wife, her son and his girlfriend with her own gun before killing himself in murder-suicide [9]
150718-A Texas man who had just turned 21 is dead after accidentally shooting himself at his birthday party, authorities said. [10]
150718-A 10-year-old boy remains in the hospital fighting for his life with a gunshot wound to the head. [11]
150718-A 21 year man he thought he'd unloaded his handgun. When he pointed the gun at trees behind his home the gun fired the round that was still in the chamber. [12]
150718-A 28-year-old man faces charges after authorities say he attacked his wife and later fired a sawed-off shotgun through their bedroom wall while their four children were home. [13]
150717-Police officers responded to a report of an accidental self-inflicted gunshot wound. The victim had misfired a stolen firearm while watching a Youtube.com video on "how to unload the gun".[14]

150718-There was a case where a woman used a handgun to kill an attacker. A man she meet through a dating website tried to kill her. They struggled and he dropped his pistol. She picked it up and killed him. [15]

[1]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/14/many-more-people-are-dying-from-gun-suicides-than-homicides/
[2]http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm
[3] http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-turtle-nest-shooting-folo-20150719-story.html
[4] http://homicides.suntimes.com/2015/07/19/autopsies-roberto-cervantes-killed-his-father-and-brother-jesus-and-joel-then-himself-in-mayfair/
[5] http://nypost.com/2015/07/19/mistress-of-former-nfl-player-kills-his-wife-then-herself/
[6] http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2015/07/19/columbus-mound-street-person-rushed-to-childrens.html
[7] http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article27726469.html
[8] http://www.ledgergazette.com/county-police-investigate-murder-suicide/9370/
[9] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166425/Man-murdered-wife-son-girlfriend-gun-killing-murder-suicide.html
[10] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tex-man-shoots-21st-birthday-party-dies-article-1.2296642
[11] http://www.ksla.com/story/29580124/boy-shot-in-head-in-critical-condition-neighbors-react
[12] http://www.ksfy.com/home/headlines/Sioux-Falls-Police-respond-to-accidental-shot-fired--317110301.html
[13] http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/07/portland_man_arrested_in_attac.html
[14] http://www.ktvn.com/story/29577246/burglar-suspect-captured-after-accidentally-shooting-himself-with-stolen-gun1a
[15] http://wvmetronews.com/2015/07/18/charleston-woman-saves-her-own-life-by-killing-attacker-with-no-look-shot/

TheKid

Israeli gun control regulations 'opposite of US'

According to Yaakov Amit, the head of the Public Security Ministry’s Firearms Licensing Department, the difference between the gun laws in the US and Israel are as clear as night and day.

“There is an essential difference between the two. In America the right to bear arms is written in the law, here it’s the opposite... only those who have a license can bear arms and not everyone can get a license.”

Amit said gun licenses are only given out to those who have a reason because they work in security or law enforcement, or those who live in settlements “where the state has an interest in them being armed.”

He added that former IDF officers above a certain rank can get a license.

Anyone who fits the requirements, is over age 21 and an Israeli resident for more than three years, must go through a mental and physical health exam, Amit said, then pass shooting exams and courses at a licensed gun range, as well as background checks by the Public Security Ministry.

Once they order their firearm from a gun store, they are allowed to take it home with a one-time supply of 50 bullets, which Amit said they cannot renew.

The gun owner must retake his license exam and testing at the gun range every three years. As of January, Amit said, a new law will go into effect requiring gun owners to prove that they have a safe at home to keep their weapon in.

Amit said that since 1996, not long after the Rabin assassination, there has been a continuous reduction in the amount of weapons in public hands due larger to stricter regulations. He estimated there are about 170,000 privately-owned firearms in Israel, or enough for around one out of every 50 Israelis, far less per capita than the US, where there are an estimated more than 300 million privately owned guns for a population of a little more than 300 million.

Amit also said there are only approximately 2,500 people in the country who have gun licenses for hunting, and they must first get approval from the Israel Nature and Parks Authority.

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Israeli-gun-control-regulations-opposite-of-US

Mad Mac

"I like posts that are fact filled with data from many different neutral sources."[thumbup][beam]

I'm OVERJOYED to AGREE with you, Amanda Alsoomse![beam]
That is just good common sense and very clear thinking [thumbup].
I wish EVERYBODY demanded "....fact filled with data from many different neutral sources."
Someone searching for the TRUTH of any matter, instead of just support for preconceived ideological views, will research ALL(not just both) sides BEFORE deciding, NOT AFTER!
PLEASE START CHECKING EVERY POSTERS REFS........INCL MINE............BEFORE FORMING YOUR OPINION! [beam]
ALWAYS track back to the originating source of research and ALWAYS check the footnote refs and research parameters. TRUTH is in the details. See my posts below.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Keep them coming, Kid."
Uh-oh. [scared] You're scaring me. And you were doing so well.
Did you EVEN BOTHER researching Kid's refs, and mine? [huh]
Incl footnotes and research parameters? [huh]
If not, you have made an unfortunate but common mistake.[sad]
Believe NOTHING, research EVERYTHING.
Otherwise you WILL be duped, as it appears you have been.[sad]
PLEASE check MY refs BEFORE you respond. It'll save your time.
---------------------------------------------------------
"When I see an emoticon studded post, I know I will see a single source for data - usually the NRA."
That sentence appears nonsensical. NRA refs don't use emotis. NRA is too macho for them. But I understand what you MEANT to say.
You misunderstand. I use lots and varied emotis on certain people to get my intent thru on printed form.... you know smiles for non aggression, non insult, or approval, raised eyebrow for question, etc, because "certain" emotionally immature posters "feeeeellings" get hurt WAY too easily when you're disagreeing w/them. Then the monkey excrement starts flying, and that's just plain (as you said) "... not civil..add nothing substantive to the conversation; and..reduce the discussion to the level of pre-school, sandbox play."[sad]

Example;
YOU DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDREL!!![censored]
Opposing;
[lol]YOU DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDREL!!![thumbup][beam][lol]

Do you now understand emoti usage, I hope? [huh]
They're kind of a hassle, but worth the extra effort, for context.
If you know a better way than emotis, PLEASE TEACH ME.[beam]
If you DON'T Amanda....then....WHY are you attacking? [huh]
----------------------------

".... I know I will see a single source for data - usually the NRA."
Speaking for myself, I use ALL MANNER of scientific, political, FACT BASED reports and studies from MANY, MANY differing viewpoints and sources, world wide, BEFORE forming any opinion.
Perhaps you should research my many past posts to verify?
YOU can EASILY CHANGE my opinion w/verified facts/research.
PLEASE, pick something and DEBATE the FACTS! [beam]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Getting data on guns from the NRA is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry....."

Getting data on guns from GUN GRABBER, PEOPLE CONTROL ZEALOTS, AND ELITISTS THINKING THEY'RE BETTER THAN US, USING GUN CARRYING BODYGUARDS, is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry.

Getting data on guns from the ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL, USA HATING, HOPLOPHOBIC, MARXIST TRAITORS, INFRINGING CITIZEN'S RIGHTS BY PUNISHING THE INNOCENT, LAW ABIDING, NON VIOLENT CITIZEN, NOT EVEN NEAR THE SAME COAST AS THE VIOLENT THUG MURDERER SCUM, is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry.

Getting data on guns from the RACIST, ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL, LIMITED RIGHTS FOR BLACK CITIZENS, ELITIST BLOOMBURG AND HIS B.O.R. HATING DEMOC-SOC-PROG GAGGLE, is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry.
(You weren't "told" of this? No surprise. Just PLEASE research BEFORE you respond! ASK me if your research fails)

Getting data on guns from ANY FALSE/HALF-TRUTH PROSTI-RESEARCHER GETTING PAID FOR PRODUCING THE DESIRED RESULTS is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry(See Kid's cited study below, and my many posts)

Getting data on guns from ANY HOPLOPHOBIC SOURCE, SPECIFICALLY IGNORING THE PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS, MENTAL DEFECTS, AND VIOLENT HISTORY ASPECTS OF THE MURDERERS, IS NOT ONLY HYPOCRITICAL, BUT ABSOLUTELY NOT SCIENTIFIC, NOT FACTUAL, and is as worthless as getting data on the benefits of smoking cigarettes from the tobacco industry.
Need I really continue? [huh]
Like I said, someone searching for the TRUTH of any matter, instead of just support for preconceived ideological views, will research ALL(not just both) sides BEFORE deciding. NOT AFTER!
Believing without science Amanda, is called "ideological" brainwashing. Suitable only for sheep, parrots, lemmings, and lennin's useful idiots-------NOT FOR YOU OR ME!
-----------------------------------------------------
"The editor should pull posts that disrespect the President of the United States with name calling..."
Accurate descriptions of provable actions is NOT "name calling"!
Neither is "lampooning", a GREAT American political tradition.
You thought it was OK for YOU and YOURS to "disrespect" and insult bushy boy...DIDN'T YOU![scared] YOU NEVER complained ONCE! [huh]THAT seems a little hypocritical, don't ya think? [huh]
Your anti U.S. "messiah" is the soc-prog golfer in chief, so NOW YOU DEMAND HE'S OFF LIMITS!?! [huh] I DON'T THINK SO!!

Besides, we have that pesky 1st Amendment RIGHT to speak our minds, otherwise the misled "great unwashed" sheeple would have been quieted in the 60s, and I would not feel obligated to correct marxist misinformation and half-truth propaganda, and defend against treacherous anti Constitutional attacks.

Do YOU LIKE the prosti-litions (of both parties), presenting and passing 1st Amendment infringements, as you seem to wish?
Careful, it may be YOU it's aimed at later!
-------------------------------
"....and posts that taunt and bully other posters. They are not civil; they add nothing substantive to the conversation; and they reduce the discussion to the level of pre-school, sandbox play."

YES Amanda Alsoomse[thumbup]YOU GOT THAT RIGHT![beam]
We used to get lots of "those type" but Stacy has chased them out.
See the posting rules for this site, the dictionary for guidance.[beam]

As for me, I have NO INTENT to hurt ANYONE'S feelings, or insult ANYONE. That would HURT my goal of convincing by FACT.
Just be aware, I'm NOT responsible for ANY personal "frail and delicate" feelings by exposing opposing true facts...AM I?!?[huh]
That seems a personality, emotional, mental type defect, wouldn't it?
I didn't make them that way, let them blame other things for their shortcomings, as usual.

I'm just exposing people to the verifiable facts I've found, from my research. I'm just waiting for the opposition to SCIENTIFICALLY AND FACTUALLY PROVE me wrong, and then guide me to the CORRECT PATH with FACTS-NOT "feeeeellings"!

So far, with "those" posters, it's just C/P, diversion, more C/P, then avoidance, piling on more C/P, all while STUBBORNLY REFUSING to examine/pick apart ANY contrary and FACTUAL evidence. God FORBID "those" posters EVER ATTEMPT a logical, adult, 2 way discussion, instead of just tucking tail and and running away to spread the SAME EXACT, already DISPROVED, half-truths(lies) on other threads.
Research this site, and see if I'm telling the truth, and how many times this has occurred. You WILL be shocked at the truth.

Altho, to be honest, I kinda like to "play with" "those" posters!
I use the "hit-n-run trolls" as my personal amusement![beam] I have LOTS OF FUN!! WooHOO!![beam]

Please don't make the foolish mistake of confusing enthusiastic discourse(debate) and HONEST questions and observations with "taunt and bully" tho. See dictionary for guidance.
To some, YOUR post would EASILY be considered "taunt and bully" AND insulting. (Reread it for yourself)

Luckily, I AM AN ADULT, physically and mentally, and emotionally mature, hence I took NO offense from your or Kid's posts.[beam]

It's OK, even highly DESIRED(on MY part) that we don't have the same opinions, hold the same thoughts, believe the same things.
That would BE BORING, don't YOU agree?[huh]

Please be aware, we still have a slight semblance of FREE SPEECH, so not everybody is gonna bow down to your beliefs.
Some WILL disagree and challenge WHY you believe what you do.
(That would be ME for one!)[beam]

Been a pleasure comming w/you Amanda, please stay.[beam]

Mad Mac

Welcome back Kid. [beam]
Nice "C/P piling on" while STILL AND AGAIN refusing to address prior posts.[yawn]
Nice diversion attempt, while STILL AND AGAIN refusing to address prior posts.[yawn]
Nice avoidance attempt, while STILL AND AGAIN refusing to address prior posts.[yawn]

So.....[yawn]....I say STILL AND AGAIN:

I'm STILL and AGAIN, very disappointed, Kid.

You obviously STILL and AGAIN, have NOT even glanced at my refs.[huh]
What are you STILL and AGAIN, so AFRAID of?[huh]

Is researching and gaining factual knowledge SO horrendous?

Come ON, Kid, how long can you keep up your tactics I've pointed out above, and below?
Please, wouldn't SIMPLE research be easier for you?

I'm with you 'til you research, dissect, pick apart, and pretty please DISPROVE MY REFS from several posts down.

Or ADMIT they are SCIENTIFICALLY SOUND, UNBIASED, FACTUAL, and HONESTLY CONDUCTED studies and reports.

You don't even have to admit your cited "study" is bogus, I won't push.

TheKid

Why do people lie? Some people lie to avoid punishment. Some people lie to manipulate others so the liar can get what they want. Some people don't know that they are telling a lie. Some people lie to booster their self-worth or identity. And some people lie because they like to lie.

According to a Yiddish saying, “A half truth is a full lie.”

Joseph Goebbels said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. “ [1]

I do cut and paste a lot. I use other people words to make a point and I try to always give a citation. I encourage readers to follow the links. I try to use only major sources. Unfortunately reading is not the same as comprehension.

Who lies?

Lee Atwater, the former chairman of the Republican Party “was the dark master of the dirty trick” and he used cutthroat tactics against Democratic opponents. [2] He created the coded language and dog whistles we hear today. He is most known for saying. “You start out in 1954 by saying, “N..ger, n..ger, n..ger.” By 1968 you can't say “n..ger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.” [3] Atwater taught Karl Rove how to control the narrative. “TOM TURNIPSEED: Anything goes. Tell them what they want to hear. Lie, cheat, steal, make it up— making up stuff. He used to go back in a room, make up these polls. I tell you, he'd come back with a poll in about a half an hour.” [4]

Frank I. Luntz is a Republican is an American political consultant, pollster, and "public opinion guru" best known for developing talking points and other messaging for various Republican causes. He Helped Newt Gingrich create loaded language to make Democrats look bad. He encouraged Republicans to call the Democratic Party as Democrats and corrupt, greedy, liberal, sick or traitors. [5]. He uses focus groups to find words that have the emotional effect he desires. So the estate tax which only affects 1% of the population becomes the “Death Tax.”

Luntz said, “my job is to look for the words that trigger the emotion. Words alone can be found in a dictionary or a telephone book, but words with emotion can change destiny, can change life as we know it." Republicans make up their own facts. They make up their own reality. They decide that a belief about an issue makes it true. Since Republicans cannot debate issues with real facts, they lie. They cannot govern and do not govern because if government succeeds, they lose. So Republicans mislead and lie.

“The one real talent the Republican Party has demonstrated is the production of misleading propaganda. Why are their lies so successful? Because they know they can count on most voters being uninformed and gullible — and likely to remember the lie in the headline or TV sound bite, and be too tired, too busy or unskilled to question or search further.” [6]

Today’s version of the Republican Party heeds the Luntz recipe and draws upon voters’ emotions through disinformation and lies because, as Rick Perlstein pointedly writes: “The mortal fear of the Republicans is that if government delivers the goods, the Republicans have no future.” [7]

“The Republican Party has a free-floating relationship with truth. The party distorts, insinuates, misleads, and blatantly lies.”
Katherine Yurica points out Frank Luntz is a master at redefining words. [8]

A 2013 study from the nonpartisan Center For Media Affairs has concluded that since the beginning of President Obama’s second term, Republicans have lied three times more often than Democrats. [9]

[1] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbelslie.html
[2] http://listverse.com/2014/01/18/10-worst-dirty-tricks-in-american-politics/
[3] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater
[4] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/atwater/etc/script.html
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz
[6] [7] https://consortiumnews.com/2012/05/31/gops-strategy-of-deception/
[8] http://www.politicususa.com/2013/05/29/sides-it-study-finds-republicans-lie-times-democrats.html
[9] http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/LuntzPropagandistOfCentury.html

Localyokel

In 2009, it was reported that the first act of orangutan cannibalism had been witnessed. A female orangutan was recorded eating the body of deceased infant. You might be surprised that monkeys also account for 80% of a chimpanzee’s diet.

All systems normal .
And that's a whole truth.

Mad Mac

It's NOT a lie if it's an HONEST mistake Kid.
No big deal, we ALL make them sometimes.
Some worse than others.

When the HONEST MISTAKE has been ID'd, and verified as an honest mistake, the HONEST person NEVER repeats that HONEST MISTAKE again. Nor anything similar.

BUT, when that person REPEATS, over, and over, and OVER that (FORMERLY honest) mistake, it becomes an INTENTIONAL LIE.

When that INTENTIONAL LIE is used to deceive, dupe, trick, manipulate, etc, the reader/listener, it becomes INTENTIONAL PROPAGANDA/LIES against the Citizen and Country.

Please forgive my bluntness Kid, but you HAVE been KNOWINGLY posting lies and propaganda.

I KNOW you ARE at least as intelligent as me Kid, so I KNOW you checked my refs as I did yours, or you SHOULD have, you've had plenty of time, and I've been complaining enough.
YET, you happily CONTINUE ON SPREADING THOSE SAME LIES and PROPAGANDA, maliciously misleading the readers.
And diverting, avoiding, and piling on C/P.
ALL that effort could've been used debunking my refs, researching for the truth, no matter WHERE it may lead us.

It's NOT too late Kid....but soon....very soon.............
You took the Oath, you NEVER renounced, you should be standing with me and others, shoulder to shoulder, DEFENDING OUR CONSTITUTION, INCL our Bill of Rights, if not our people. Think of your Army days, you don't have to like somebody to fight WITH THEM to achieve the COMMON GOAL....Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness, peace, security and "NATURES OWN CREATOR" GIVEN RIGHTS for you, your loved ones and our glorious and unique Country, and Countrymen/women.

Our Country is screwed. Both major parties, the press, elitists, marxists, 1% of the 1%, the Fed, wallstreet, banksters, the foreign and domestic enemies are all conspiring to turn us into mindless sheep for the slaughter, stealing us blind.
Most people are sleeping, unaware, slaving away just trying to feed their families, or are just hypnotized by the idiocy on the TV, believing ANYTHING fed them, too stupefied and AFRAID to THINK for themselves, to see the TRUTH.

Here's just ONE SHOCKER you should see, title's misleading, it goes back to WWI;
JFK to 911 Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-vaNM
If you like, I can link more.

But your first step should be defending our Bill of Rights, EVERY SINGLE ONE!
http://www.ushistory.org/documents/amendments.htm

Mad Mac

YYUUCCH! Localyokel, that's sick![scared]
This too; Mama dogs eat their stillborn. To help keep predators away I think.[scared]
But who are we to judge, abortionists and "mothers" kill viable babies every day![crying]

Mad Mac

Correction; MURDER viable babies

TheKid

In Mad Mac's response he used a term I was unfamiliar with – hoplophobia.

“Hoplophobia is a neologism, originally coined as a pejorative, to describe an "irrational aversion to weapons." It is sometimes used more generally to describe the "fear of firearms"or colloquially as the "fear of armed citizens." [1]

Am I afraid of firearms? Firearms are tools. Tools that are designed and intended to kill. I got my first rifle when I was ten years old. And, after I completed a NRA gun safety course, my friends and I went shooting regularly. I also happen to be a veteran who has trained on everything from a M-16 to a 80mm motar. I'm just afraid who has firearms.

I am afraid that a man like Mad Mac who agrees “ABSOLUTELY 100%” with Ted Nugent's rant has firearms.

In a concert Ted Nugent said:
'Obama, he's a piece of s--t, and I told him to s--k on my machine gun. Let's hear it for him. And then I was in New York. I said, "Hey, Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless b----h. Since I'm in California, how about Barbara Boxer , she might want to s--k on my machine gun. And Dianne Feinstein, ride one of these you worthless wh--e. Any questions?' [2]
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplophobia
[1] http://www.hidesertstar.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/article_93972d9a-fe82-11e4-9726-d3327a0fe5b6.html

Mad Mac

1) It's NOT surprising Kid is unfamiliar w/MANY things, incl verified, unbiased facts on many, MANY subjects. He REFUSES to consider ANY opinion other than his own, formed more years ago than I could count, and REFUSES to research ANY data presented not supporting his old, preconceived notions, and swallows anything spoon-fed him by the puppeteering marxists.

2) Thank you Kid, for clearing me, and not reprinting your TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE for this site, disgusting and quite disturbing fantasy sex statement you attempted to attach to me.
THAT degenerate statement was ALL yours.
Anyone who could fantasize that sort of thing is truly a "sick pup" and should seek immediate mental health care.

2) "I am afraid that a man like Mad Mac who agrees “ABSOLUTELY 100%” with Ted Nugent's rant has firearms."

That statement is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of hoplophobia.

Also an example of typical democ-sog-prog dictatorial attitude of, "I can have Constitutional Rights, but YOU CAN'T...UNLESS you AGREE with ME!"

It's also an example of an "authoritarian" and "fearful" (http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/jp_seven.htm) with "projection", "denial", and "rage" issues (http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm).

3) "I am afraid that a man like Mad Mac...has firearms."
Am I understanding you correctly Kid?
I am a U.S. Citizen, passing 2 Nation wide FEDERAL AND LOCAL criminal background investigations in the past 5 years, have NEVER committed a VIOLENT OFFENSIVE CRIME, am not a "regular" criminal, not a drug or alcohol abuser, am law abiding, a property OWNER, have regularly LEGALLY "carried", have walked away from physical confrontations knowing full well I'd have easily won, am SO legit I haven't even got a traffic ticket in 20 years, "Expert" in small arms, and a Marksmanship Instructor.

Then, along comes high and mighty, self righteous, "lord" Kid. He who thinks HE should decide who gets Rights and Freedoms, TELL us WHAT to think, say, and believe, even tho, IN ALL HIS GLORIOUS "WISDOM" has been proven completely unable to understand and read HIS OWN CITED "STUDIES" correctly.

Kid, who refuses to research any opposing views out of FEAR of reconsidering his opinion, FEAR of new knowledge and facts, a hoplophobe (w/who knows what other "problems"), has admitted and proven by his own statements this thread, has ABSOLUTELY NO KNOWLEDGE of "modern" firearms or ballistics, has HIGHHANDEDLY decided I, and other law abiding non violent Citizens LIKE me, should be ALL be DENIED OUR RIGHTS?

And WHY ALL THIS you ask?
Because KID IS IRRATIONALLY "AFRAID" of historically proven, NON violent ME!! And IRRATIONALLY AFRAID of other law abiding, non violent Citizens LIKE me! Male, female, makes no difference, Kid is IRRATIONALLY AFRAID of us all! Because we DARE disagree with HIS personal phobias and views!
Wow, Kid, just wow. I theorize your meme must be a real photo.

Mad Mac

Kid, this is just one ol' Vet offering help to another ol' Vet, if needed.
Putting aside our differences, no sarcasm, no good natured teasing, no insult, nothing bad intended at all. [cool] Straight talk.

While rereading your posts in order to "get a grip" on your thinking,
and see what nuances I may have missed, I was drawn to your;
"Unfortunately reading is not the same as comprehension." which IS EXACTLY RIGHT. That leads me to ask uncomfortable questions;
Do you have any comprehension problems?
If so, will you allow me the privilege of honestly trying to help you?
If you reject my offer due to our differences or my not having the formal training, I understand, no problem.
I believe our local libraries have EXCELLENT programs (WELL WORTH the effort, and anonymous) designed to assist, if that would be more comfortable. I'll call them when they open and post the scoop here.

My temp junkbox will be open for a couple days, tho I'll be unavailable to reply Tues and probably Wednesday.
m8r-h11rgv@mailinator.com

To everyone else, there is NO shame in getting help if you need to.
The shame is on people who "mess with" someone honestly trying to better themselves. [angry]

Very Respectfully Submitted.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now back to my relatively normal, humorous, playful, semi-serious, [censored], smart(donkey) self. [innocent]

ipsofacto

Read the Forbes Magazine article* in the link below.

I always suspected there was a very strong and satisfying neurochemical reaction to handling ing a gun. I first experienced this myself when I was given a shotgun when I was fourteen. And again when I was given an M1 Garand in 1942 to use when I was twenty. I now understand it was the release of dopamine in my brain.

Those who probably are the biggest part of the gun problem in the U.S. are most likely addicted to their guns. And here is the bizarre part. We won't allow people to acquire illegal drugs for an addiction that ultimately will destroy them, but we will allow gun addicts unfettered access to weapons which contribute directly and unintentionally to 30,000 deaths every year!

Also, if you look at the arguments in defense of unrestricted gun ownership made by gun addicts, they are absurd (home protection, tyrannical government, stopping "bad" guys, etc.). The principles of safe gun ownership preclude the guns be useful for protection. Also, a gun won't help a gun owner stop a tyrannical government that has a drone program. And, unless you’re a quick draw with an open carry permit (e.g., the polic") you aren't going to stop a bad guy with your gun.

As that Australian comedian said, the real reason people have guns is because they like them (or rather the dopamine release they get when they buy, fire, clean and think about them).

*http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenkotler/2012/12/18/addicted-to-bang-the-neuroscience-of-the-gun/

TheKid

There once was a TV show called, “What's My Line.” Three contestants tried to fool celebrity panelists trying to guess the occupation or identity of one of the contestants. Two of the contestants were fakes.

I am coming to the conclusion one of the frequents posters in the forum is not what he seems. For a while I thought Andy Kaufman was alive and well, writing some of these posts and pulling everyone's leg. But this poster isn't funny. (Neither was Andy Kaufman now that I think about it.) Or this poster might be Cliff Clavin, well known know-it-all expert on every thing. But Cliff is a OK guy. I may now know his true identity. I'm sure he's the loudmouth drunk at the end of the bar that annoys everyone. And everyone wishes he would go away or pass out drunk. The kind of drunk you leave alone because you don't know what's he's going to do next.

But when I read what Mad Mac writes, I think his true identity is either Conspiracy Theory's Jerry Fletcher or Taxi Driver Travis Bickle.

TheKid

Isofacto's comment are very interesting. I know from personal experience hitting a target feels good. Firing a weapon gives you a sense of power. In the military or I suppose in competition too you want to win, to be the best or least prove you could do it, whatever it happened to be.

Gamblers have been tested with PET scans [1] [2] [3] Pathological gamblers have higher levels of dopamine and a higher incidence of Impulse Control Disorder which causes repetitive and self-destructive behavior. Dopamine has a similar effect as cocaine. [2] Cocaine intensifies the amount of available dopamine and this dopamine causes a sense of euphoria. Food, sex. Drug and risk taking behavior releases dopamine which causes makes you high.

I knew a buddy who practically every day would disassemble, clean and oil his firearm collection. The funny think is this guy never went to a range. He also owned a Weatherby Mark V which was almost as long as he was tall. I thought at the time he was compensating for some type of psychological defect because he was one of those short guys who liked to pick fights with very tall guys. It's like he was trying to prove something. A 2015 study says “gun ownership and uncontrollable anger go hand in hand. The more guns you own the more likely you are to be subject to angry outbursts that you cannot control.” [5]

While the fanatic gun owners will dismiss the conclusions in the studies cited next, the truth is apparent to anyone who knows a “gun nut.” [6]
Those who own guns tend to be part of a “social gun culture.” [7]
Men who carry guns suffer from a “crisis of confidence.” [8]
Gun owners tend to be angry and impulsive. [9]
Holding a gun can make you paranoid. [10]
Those with racist views are more likely to oppose gun reform. [11]
Conservatives are far more likely to own firearms than others. [12]
Risk-taking students are more likely to have guns at college. [13]
Many American White Men Worship Guns Because of Sexual Insecurity, Entitlement, and Profit [14]

In 2012 a USA Today article said, “an estimated 20% of gun owners possess 65% of the nation's guns, according to a Harvard University survey published in 2007.” [15] The number of Americans who own guns is falling. [16] [17] [18]

The gun industry and their NRA mouthpiece claim “Obama’s coming for your guns” or the government is hoarding ammo or the government is going to declare martial law or you are gong to have to fight the US army, or the Chinese army or fight space toads from Dimension X. Just like the snake oil salesmen that hawk gold and survival seeds, the gun manufacturers want to sell guns. Obama has actually decreased gun restrictions. Obama signed a law to allow people to carry firearms in national parks. [19]
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479148/
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1892797/
[3] http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/cocaine/how-does-cocaine-produce-its-effects
[4] http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/daniel-zimmerman/p320-entry-gun-fetish/
[5] http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/04/gun_ownership_and_uncontrollab.html
[6] http://csgv.org/blog/2015/psychology-gun-ownership/
[7] http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/early/2015/06/09/injuryprev-2015-041586
[8] Jennifer Carlson, author of “Citizen-Protectors: The Everyday Politics of Guns in an Age of Decline,”
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-carlson-gun-carry-culture-20150526-story.html
[9] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bsl.2172/abstract;jsessionid=09D1D7D0EA798D7D280D3209C92A3FCC.f03t01
[10] http://news.nd.edu/news/29684-holding-a-gun-makes-you-think-others-are-too-new-research-shows/
[11] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3815007/
[12] http://bigstory.ap.org/article/85c182d0976f44b0a54780b7df8633bb/major-survey-shows-gun-ownership-declining
[13] http://archive.sph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/Gunthreats2/gunspdf.pdf
[14] http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/many-american-white-men-worship-guns-because-of-sexual-insecurity-entitlement-and-profit/17892-many-american-white-men-worship-guns-because-of-sexual-insecurity-entitlement-and-profit
[15] http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/19/tragedy-stresses-multiple-gun-ownership-trend-in-us/1781285/
[16] http://billmoyers.com/2015/03/25/gun-ownership-declining-gun-lobby-powerful/
[17] http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/03/09/us/politics/ap-us-poll-gun-ownership.html?_r=0
[18] http://www.newsweek.com/us-gun-ownership-declines-312822
[19] http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/15/nra-right-obama-coming-our-guns/

Mad Mac

Serves me right for my honest, heartfelt, very respectful attempt at extending a helping hand to a fellow (as Kid claims) Vet.[crying]

Any true Vet would have responded in kind, with the same respect offered: "No thanks Madmac", "You misunderstood my comment Madmac, THIS is what I meant...", "I've got it covered Madmac",or
"Thanks anyway Madmac", and then went back to the debate.

Instead Kid throws childish insults befitting his......."intellect".
Thank you Kid for exposing yourself AGAIN. [thumbup]
--------------------------------------
Since we've now established Kid DOES claim to have a normal adult comprehension level, and IS ABLE to understand his own cited (extremely faulty) "study" (incl footnotes and parameters), he should be capable of explaining WHY he has INTENTIONALLY MISLED the reader with PROPAGANDA/LIES. [huh] AGAIN!

Or use his normal adult comprehension level to explain WHY I am wrong, re his own cited (extremely faulty) "study" and "facts." [huh]

Or use his normal adult comprehension level to explain EXACTLY WHY MY cited study and refs are wrong/faulty, as I did his. [huh]

Yeah, Right. I'll hold my breathe 'til Kid actually tries adult convo!

Mad Mac

Very disappointing Kid can't come up with a new/different tactic..... .....So..........I say AGAIN;

Nice "C/P piling on" while STILL AND AGAIN refusing to address prior posts.
Nice diversion attempt, while STILL AND AGAIN refusing to address prior posts.
Nice avoidance attempt, while STILL AND AGAIN refusing to address prior posts.

So..... ....I say STILL AND AGAIN Kid:

I'm STILL and AGAIN, very disappointed in you, Kid.

You obviously STILL and AGAIN, have NOT even glanced at my refs.
What are you STILL and AGAIN, so AFRAID of?

Is researching and gaining factual knowledge SO horrendous?

Amanda Alsoomse

Mad Mac,

In answer to the question you put to me in your post [1] - my answer is no, I have heard enough.

Any trickle of insight from you is drowned in the backwash of a sea of repetitious diatribe. If I am going to read an entire post I prefer ideas that are less derivative and arguments more skillfully crafted than the ones you present.

Since you asked me for instruction, it would be a good thing to cease calling people names and to deescalate discord, rather than call people out for a fight [1]. Unfortunately, aggression and escalation are in the nature of most gun owners [2]. Notably aggressive and escalating gun owner George Zimmerman has a documented history of taunting others he thought were easy targets [3]. When it comes to deescalation - he, like most gun owners, doesn't know how to defuse a situation. His childish escalating tactics have not worked that well for him and his happy life.

Speaking of children, you also asked if I know of anything better than emoticons. When I was a preschool teacher we used primitive emogis. The children would draw a happy face on one side of a paper plate and a sad face on the other side. Then I would tell a story. "Once there was a bear who cried because he didn't have any honey." The children held up the sad face. "One day he smiled because he smelled honey." They turned the plate over...when kids made angry, dismissive, or rude faces during play, I said to them what I say to you now, "Use your words! That is what grown ups do and I know you want to grow up!"

If a missive has to be propped up by emogis and capital letters my first impression is that it probably is low on authority and high on overconfidence bias.

[1] Mad Mac posted at 2:37 pm on Sun, Jul 19, 2015.
[2] Phillips, S., & Maume, M. O. (2007). Have gun will shoot? Weapon instrumentality, intent, and the violent escalation of conflict. Homicide Studies: An Interdisciplinary & International Journal, 11(4), 272–294.
[3] http://www.rawstory.com/2012/05/co-worker-zimmerman-bullied-me-with-racist-taunts/

TheKid

Mac read your posts again. I want to set the record straight.
I have never said or written that I am a Vietnam combat veteran. I was in the Army during the Vietnam War, which makes me a Vietnam Era veteran.
My oldest brother was killed in action in Vietnam along with 29 other members of his Hospital Corpsman Class. Only one person in my brother's Hospital Corpsman class survived his enlistment. Each on those sailors had spent free time at my parents' home.
I was what they now call a “Navy Brat.” I grew up in Navy housing and on Navy bases. My Boy Scout Troop Leader was a retired Commander. My father's friends were active servicemen and my childhood friends were Navy brats.

Mad Mac

THIS IS A PREDICTIVE POST AND CHALLENGE TO KID. I'm unavailable as of now, and I know he has no self control....so;

1) I predict Kid will be unable use his normal adult comprehension skills to DEFEND his own cited (extremely faulty) "study" (incl footnotes and parameters).

2) I predict Kid will be unable use his normal adult comprehension skills to to explain WHY MY cited study and refs are wrong/faulty (incl footnotes and parameters).

3) I predict Kid will just keep on mindlessly C/P piling on while I'm unavailable, adding NOTHING OTHER than faulty studies, faulty refs, and inane comments.

If Kid can accomplish 1 or 2 above(yeah, RIGHT!), I will not post for 7 days.

In return, if Kid can NOT accomplish 1 or 2 above, he MUST KEEP POSTING this thread for 7 days, honestly researching in an attempt to prove my firearm assertions this thread wrong, answer all related questions DIRECTLY, and MUST STOP his incessant C/P piling on for those 7 days of research and answering.

I further predict Kid will refuse, still being vehemently opposed to discovering factual knowledge or researching anything other than spoon-fed half-truth talking points.

You got a 2 day head start Kid, what do you say? [beam]

TheKid

Here's another word few people have ever heard about:

“Anosognosia: Impaired awareness of illness (anosognosia) is a major problem because it is the single largest reason why individuals with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder do not take their medications. It is caused by damage to specific parts of the brain, especially the right hemisphere. It affects approximately 50 percent of individuals with schizophrenia and 40 percent of individuals with bipolar disorder. When taking medications, awareness of illness improves in some patients.
Impaired awareness of illness is a strange thing. It is difficult to understand how a person who is sick would not know it. Impaired awareness of illness is very difficult for other people to comprehend. To other people, a person’s psychiatric symptoms seem so obvious that it’s hard to believe the person is not aware he/she is ill.

Many studies of individuals with schizophrenia report that approximately half of them have moderate or severe impairment in their awareness of illness. Studies of bipolar disorder suggest that approximately 40 percent of individuals with this disease also have impaired awareness of illness. This is especially true if the person with bipolar disorder also has delusions and/or hallucinations.” [1]

You can get help, reduce your anxiety and live a happier life.

Morongo Basin Walk-InCrisis Center
55475 Santa Fe Trail, Ste. 100
Yucca Valley, CA 92284
(Entrance on Inca Trail)
Phone: (855) 365-6558 or 7-1-1 for TTY users
Hours: 24 hours a day - 7 days a week
[1] http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/medical/anosognosia-studies.html

TheKid

An unidentified dead man had roughly two tons of ammunition and more than 1,200 high-end pistols, shotguns and rifles in his home. The cache of firearms and ammunition was so large that it took police days to remove several truckloads from the canyon home.

A neighbor who declined to give her name because she was afraid said, “He'll say crazy things to people like he does night missions swimming to Catalina or show us self-defense moves.” The dead man told his fiancée that he was an undercover operative for the government and was being watched by the unnamed agency he worked for.” [1]

Like the NRA says, ““You can have my guns when you take them from my cold, dead hands.”

[1] http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-guns-20150720-story.html

TheKid

A good guy with a gun was guarding an Army Recruiting Center in Lancaster PA. This good guy with a gun accidentally fired a shot outside of the recruiters' office. The “responsible” gun owner said, “I was out here and was talking to a guy who wanted to look at my AR-15.I was trying to clear the weapon and hand it over to him when it went off. I thought it was empty and must have missed it." [1]

Nothing wrong could ever possibly happen when a “good guy” has a gun, right?

[1] http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/story/news/local/2015/07/23/armed-volunteer-fires-shot/30574117/

don mckinney

I am surprised no one mentioned the most topical , contemporary resources
on gun situational awareness . On you tube , caravan to midnight , sandy hook a-z, interviews
with wolfgang halbig , school safety expert , ex principal , policeman .This is
episode 189 . 99 gun laws were enacted as a result of this occurance .26
elementary school children were supposedly murdered .This was a crime that
terrorized our nation , repeated in the media for years .Terrorism like this has no statute of limitations and halbig is suing for the maintenance records for the school prior
to opening .None exist as testified .The school was never operating .The mold
in the official photos initiated halbigs interest .
Also see episode 232 on the boston bombing hoax .You do not put a man with legs blown off in a wheel chair and wheel him away .No dripping blood .
Sept.11;the new pearl harbor , 2300 architects and engineers say the buildings were strong . The information we get gives us a false sense we are divided , when in fact we would agree when given the same true facts .From " jfk to 911; everything is a rich mans trick " , to divide and conquer . Terrorism is a tool that works perfectly
as a gun grabbing tool . So does our current "jade helm " military exercise of
command and control of the southwest 12 states , martial law exercise with military and police mining intelligence of local citizens , also on caravan to midnight .
The right to protect yourself from an intruder on big pharma drugs is a valid
reason a gun should be available , or hunting food when this fiat currency
collapses .Since were neighbors , lets be friends .And share facts deprived us by the media investigative reporters that seem extinct on t.v. Go to the internet for news .
The above mentioned incidents fueled the over reach for guns and control of all
rights that are mythical anyway . when the rubber hits the road everyone commits
three felonies per day without realizing it .[sad]

TheKid

Last night a 58 year old killed two women in a movie theater at Lafayette, La The killer had a history of mental illness. In 2006 he applied for a concealed weapon permit but was denied because in the past he was charged with arson. He was able to purchase firearms because Alabama does not require a permit or license to buy or own a handgun. [1]

He posted hatred towards liberals and made anti-government rants on websites. He filed for bankruptcy protection in 2002. In 2014 when he was evicted from his home which he then vandalized. [1]

“Alabama has very liberal gun control laws in comparison to most states.” Alabama does not have a waiting period before purchasing a firearm. [2]

The information below is from the NRA-ILA website. Handguns do not have to be licensed. You can get a permit to carry a handgun. You don't need a permit to purchase. Firearms are not registered.
Alabama has enacted the following policies:
Castle Doctrine; No-Net Loss; Right to Carry Confidentiality (Provisions Enacted); Right to Carry Laws; Right to Carry Reciprocity and Recognition; Right to Carry in Restaurants; and Right to Keep & Bear Arms State Constitutional Provisions.
With some exceptions, the open carry of firearms is lawful. It is unlawful for a drug addict, habitual drunkard, or one who has been convicted of a "crime of violence" to own or possess a handgun. Law enforcement authorities have advised that minors cannot carry or possess a handgun. It is unlawful to sell, give, lend or deliver a handgun to any person under 18, or to a person whom the seller has reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a crime of violence, is a drug addict, a habitual drunkard, or of unsound mind. [3]

Federally licensed firearms dealers in Alabama are required to request a background check using the FBI National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) database. but state files are not always included in the federal database. Private sellers are not required to do a background check. [4]

Rather than seeing people get into gunfights with each other in public places, wouldn't be more reasonable and safer to do everything we could to stop mentally unstable people from getting a firearm? If we had very thorough and comprehensive background check these unstable people would have to use a less lethal weapon. Also if everyone who purchased ammunition had to prove they were of sound mind many of these killers would not have such easy access to deadly weapons. Requiring gun owners to carry liability insurance if they own a firearm or the buy ammunition might keep deadly weapons from unstable people.

Also we need more comprehensive and affordable mental health services. Many people with mental health problems are highly active and productive members of our community. The overwhelming majority of people with a mental illness are more likely to be the victim of crime than a criminal. Practically everyone at some time of their life could benefit from professional help. “One in five American adults experienced a mental health issue. One in 10 young people experienced a period of major depression. One in 20 Americans lived with a serious mental illness, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or major depression. Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the United States. It accounts for the loss of more than 38,000 American lives each year, more than double the number of lives lost to homicide.” [5]

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/25/us/lafayette-theater-shooting-john-houser.html
[2] http://statelaws.findlaw.com/alabama-law/alabama-gun-control-laws.html
[3] https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/alabama/
[4] http://smartgunlaws.org/background-checks-in-alabama/
[5] http://www.mentalhealth.gov/basics/myths-facts/

booboo77

Riiight.. Someone starts blasting in the row in front of me. All the self-appointed heroes behind and to the side draw their semi-auto pistols and start blasting at where the shots are coming from. Problem is, there are dozens of people all around the bad guy. Plus it's a theater, it's dark everywhere. Suddenly there are dozens of shots from every direction and the chaos and confusion and possible bloodshed has just increased tenfold. This is the wrong approach. Better to have a guard with a detection wand. Maybe even showing I.D. when buying a ticket would help discourage potential maniacs. But depending on Joe Schmoe to neutralize them after the fact is a pipe dream.

Mad Mac

Excellent points booboo77.
Except I'd suggest armed guards on every entrance of every "easy victims here zone" to back up the "wand".

"...depending on Joe Schmoe to neutralize them after the fact...." IS a pretty bad alternative, but far better than doing nothing and just waiting to be the next "fish in a barrel".

Passing even MORE of the (20,000+) very stupid
anti-self-defense-tool "laws" punishing law abiding, non violent Citizens for violent [censored] actions is......well....VERY STUPID!!

Mad Mac

Re; TheKid posted at 1:00 pm on Fri, Jul 24, 2015.

We should DISARM ALL OSAMA OBAMA SUPPORTERS, LOOK WHAT THEY DID!!

Lafayette Shooter Was Obama Supporter:
“I Was For His Re-Election, I Liked His Spending”

http://rightwingnews.com/top-news/lafayette-shooter-was-obama-
supporter-i-was-for-his-re-election-i-liked-his-spending/

(I used this "righty" site to tease you "leftys". Encl in story is link to the dirtbag's social media page.)

"Since the Lafayette shooter failed a common sense regulatory background check, liberals have to go to plan B to politicize him and make him a tea partier. And while he was a conservative radio guest (why, I have no idea), he also said this in a possible manifesto…I accepted this it came to me that the president is doing exactly what Tim McVeigh did,only the president is much more effective.The way I see it,the faster he wrecks this nation, which in no way resembles what it’s founders envisioned,the faster working people with morals may re-assume command.ie I was for his re-election. I like his spending habits.etc……"

OSAMA OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE RESPONSIBLE, because this murderer liked "..his spending habits.etc......", and said so!!
Wwwhhaaaat? [scared] Not fair you say? [scared] Why NOT?
EXACTLY THE SAME as hoplophobes demanding more useless anti-self-defense-tool "laws" infringing the Rights of, and blaming every single, INNOCENT, law abiding, non violent, BOR supporting, Citizen for this murderer's actions.[scared]

Mad Mac

Re; La's Grand Theater murderer;
The Grand is YET ANOTHER "EASY VICTIMS HERE Zone", banning legal CCW and open carry firearms, w/an anti violence policy...EXACTLY like EVERY OTHER UNOPPOSED MASS MURDER LOCATION!
Gee, I wonder why this NOT LAW ABIDING murderer, just like those before him, did NOT obey the sign, the law, or the policy?
Take a guess. Anybody?
As history easily shows, anti-self-defense-tool"laws" make you SO MUCH SAFER, don't they? (sarcasm)

Still, I hear the bleating; "G-i-i-i-ive us MORE la-a-a-aws! MO-O-O-ORE....they've a-a-a-a-always worked in the pa-a-a-ast!
----------------------------
This HISTORICALLY VIOLENT THUG was "on the radar" for quite some time, and was refused a CCW.
"...purchase at a store requires a federal background check, and
serious mental illness can be (CAN BE!!) grounds for denial, but the database of prohibited buyers is imperfect."

WHAAAT?!?
"...the database of prohibited buyers is IMPERFECT"!?!

Who would've thought that after DECADES of compiling info for background checks of people buying guns, "the database of prohibited buyers is imperfect"? STILL?
BTW, less than a handful of THUGS ILLEGALLY attempting firearm purchases, out of the MULTI-THOUSANDS flagged, were ever prosecuted or even given a stern talking to!! WHY? Wasn't THAT the (partial) purpose? Bust the thugs?

Einstein said; "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

So WHO is REALLY insane?
1) Those demanding more laws PROVEN, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, TO BE INEFFECTIVE AT BEST?
2) The crazies being crazy? (At least the crazies have a REASONABLE excuse)
3) We, the innocent, law abiding, non violent Citizens TOLERATING the insanity of #1 above?
----------------------------------------------
More laws makes as much sense as executing all of 29 for our local (unworthy of naming) murderer's actions.

How about this novel idea;
Let's PUNISH the guilty VIOLENT thug for his very own personal, individual VIOLENT actions, and leave us INNOCENT CITIZENS ALONE?

How could ANY sensible, reasonable, semi-intelligent, above 10 years old person, desire to punish LAW ABIDING, non violent, non connected Citizens for the actions of VIOLENT thugs/crazies?

If someone claims to not understand the reasonableness and logic of the above, I question their thought process and ideology goals.

booboo77

Mac: Please don't sit behind me.

Mad Mac

OK

Mad Mac

Re; Amanda Alsoomse posted at 3:59 pm on Mon, Jul 20, 2015.
I see my well deserved scolding of teacher Amanda was removed.
I'll try again, only this time instead of showing her wrong on MANY
points, I'll stick to her (IMO) most egregious failure, research;

I asked;
"Did you EVEN BOTHER researching Kid's refs, and mine?
Incl footnotes and research parameters?"

teacher Amanda replied;
"...my answer is no, I have heard enough." [scared]
I'm STILL shocked rereading that response!
Evidently my expressed shock and dismay that a TEACHER of all people would NOT care about the PROVEN FACTS and searching for truth, instead caring only for her personal prejudiced biases and ideology, was too "harsh" for publication.

Maybe Martin Luther King, Jr's (harsh) quote got my post removed;
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
Nnaaah, no way, it's MLK.
Certainly NOT this one;
"The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to
think critically. Intelligence plus character - that is the goal of
true education." Martin Luther King, Jr.
---------------------------
I challenged her to defend her anti Constitutional Rights and her pro gun grabber, pro group punishment positions, with verifiable "facts and unbiased studies", as she claims to prefer (while expressing no interest at all, mind made up and all).

I would defend my pro law abiding, pro non violent, pro innocent, pro Citizen Rights, ANTI group punishment positions, with verifiable facts, unbiased studies and public records, incl FBI stats, Founding Fathers and others writings on the matter.
I would further deep research her offerings in case I should be
convinced to update my opinion. (could happen, has before)

I guess Amanda allowed her..something about...her crocodile....and her parakeet....? Crocodile ATE her parakeet maybe?

No matter, I look forward to Amanda's return and our "fact filled with data from many different neutral sources" debate where SOMEONE'S "low on authority and high on overconfidence bias" will be exposed.

I hope this post passes muster.

Mad Mac

Monthly, there are HUNDREDS of these "One person with a gun" stories the presstitutes and herders refuse to acknowledge.
I just don't have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), that reqs me to post links incessantly, while claiming others have "mental issues";
Yay for the good guy with PROPER gun control(hit your target);

Concealed Carry Permit Holder Protects Family After Suspect Opens Fire in Direction of Woman, 1-Year-Old Boy
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/28/concealed-carry-helps-man-protect-his-family-after-suspect-opens-fire-in-direction-of-woman-1-year-old-boy-police/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Firewire&utm_campaign=Firewire%20-%20HORIZON%207-28-15%20FINAL

Amanda Alsoomse

Kid,
Overconfidence bias is easy to spot. It involves many things but for me the tip off is when gun-lovers subject what they consider disagreeable evidence to more scrutiny than they subject agreeable evidence. Known as "motivated skepticism" or "disconfirmation bias," it is one element of overconfidence bias and is especially destructive for two reasons:

First, biased reasoners, those who feel strongly about their gun ownership, when considering the same stream of evidence as an unbiased reasoner will shift their beliefs further in the direction of their bias by fully scrutinizing only unfavorable evidence. Gathering more evidence does not bring biased reasoners to agreement.

Second, gun owners who are more skilled skeptics—who know a larger litany of logical flaws—but apply that skill selectively, may change their minds more slowly than unskilled reasoners.

Taber and Lodge (2006) examined the prior attitudes and attitude changes of students
when exposed to political literature for and against gun control and affirmative action. The study tested six hypotheses using two experiments and found that people with strong positive beliefs about their gun ownership are incapable of objective evaluation of data. Specifically, they found:

1. Prior attitude effect. Subjects who feel strongly about their gun ownership—even when encouraged to be objective—will evaluate supportive arguments more favorably than contrary arguments.

2. Disconfirmation bias. Subjects who feel strongly about their guns will spend more time and cognitive resources denigrating contrary arguments than supportive arguments.

3. Confirmation bias. Subjects free to choose their information sources who feel strongly about their gun ownership will seek out supportive rather than contrary sources.

4. Attitude polarization. Exposing subjects who feel strongly about their gun ownership to an apparently balanced set of pro and con arguments will exaggerate their initial polarization.

5. Attitude strength effect. Subjects voicing stronger attitudes about their gun ownership will be more prone to the above biases.

6. Sophistication effect. Politically knowledgeable subjects who feel strongly about their gun ownership, because they possess greater ammunition with which to counter-argue incongruent facts and arguments, will be more prone to the above biases.

Each of these biases by those who feel strongly about their gun ownership was confirmed by the study and by subsequent studies. That is why I don't need to hear any more from gun owners, their overconfidence bias ruins any arguments they might offer. There is no point in engaging with them because they are stuck and unable to really change ideas except at the rate a glacier moves. They are not scientists. They are believers and subject to authoritarian and hierarchical pressure. They take their marching orders from the NRA. When I want to know what the NRA says I can go to the NRA. I don't need their website reinterpreted by anyone with overconfidence bias.

https://www.unc.edu/~fbaum/teaching/articles/AJPS-2006-Taber.pdf

booboo77

I recall the concealed carry guy who opened up on a Wal-Mart terror shooter recently. Mr. Good Citizen was immediately shot down dead. There are no guarantees.

Mad Mac

You are correct booboo77, there are NO guarantees of safety.

That very sad story reminds me of this one.
Several months(?) ago, a father was in a Walmarts(Vegas or Utah?), happily talking on his cell to his wife about the BB gun he was buying for his kid's birthday and their b'day plans.
BB gun tucked under arm, other gifts in same hand, phone to ear, walking to check out counter, when some jack(donkey) hoplophobe called 911 screaming, reporting the father as a crazy w/a gun shooting up the place. SHOOTING UP THE PLACE, he lied!

Needless to say, due to the jack-donkey hoplophobe, the cops storm in to save the victims, and they kill the innocent father after seeing the BB gun and FULL HANDS. (Civil suit has been filed, but Daddy's still dead)The father had NO firearm.
Sadly NO charges filed against the lying hoplophobe.

Whether you have a firearm, or a toy gun, or a BB gun, OR NOTHING AT ALL, there are NO guarantees, EXCEPT our Constitutionally GUARANTEED, Creator given, Natural Rights, incl the Natural Right of Self Defense.

Staff
Stacy Moore

Mad Mac, your addresses to Amanda and your critiques of her personally will continue to be removed. Please stop making them.

Amanda Alsoomse

Donna,
What if the following had happened at the theater? This child could just have easily killed anyone else and set up an open-fire upon his family and any one nearby.

The incident was in pro-gun, Hayden, ID. A woman was shopping at Walmart with her children when her 2 yo pulled out her concealed carry firearm from a "special pocket" in her purse. The child shot his mother and her kids got to watch her bleed out and die.

What a trauma for those kids to have to live with! Why don't gun owners act responsibly and keep them locked away and safe? Why don't they care more about their own children? Studies show that most kids will pick up and play with any gun they find, even when they are instructed specifically not to touch and gun they find and report it to an adult. No two year old can make a rational decision about a gun or killing their own mother so why did she recklessly endanger everyone in the store?
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132159
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/02/06/gun-safety-programs-dont-work-for-children
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/30/us/idaho-walmart-shooting-accident-mother-toddler/

Mad Mac

Nice use of alinsky 13th rule: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it, was a fair attempt, until it is exposed for consideration.

1) The sad accidental shooting is just another political point to be abused by the anti lawful-self-defense-tool herd to inspire fear of inanimate objects, while pretending concern for our safety.

2) The "big picture" FACTS just don't back up the bleating;

Accidental gun deaths 2015 = 371
Guns used in self defense 2015 = 1,404,387

3) That means 1,404,016 law abiding, non violent, completely innocent Citizens DEFENSIVELY exercised their 2nd Amendment Rights to SAVE THE LIVES of themselves, their FAMILIES, and other Citizens around them(ALSO law abiding, non violent, and completely innocent), AGAINST the violent thug element stopped from committing MORE CRIMES AGAINST the Citizenry. (Maybe I should post THEIR stories)
(Do-o-o-on't confu-u-u-use us with the fa-a-a-a-acts!)

I'm beginning to think the anti-gunners are actually a "Safety in the Violent Thug Workplace" group, since disarming those 1,404,016 law abiding, non violent, completely innocent Citizens and leaving them COMPLETELY DEFENSELESS against violent murderers, rapists, and thugs ONLY PROTECTS THE VIOLENT THUG!
Just think! We could have protected 1,404,016 of the violent "little darlings" just this year!
What "feeling" person could EVER be against saving those precious little lives?
Ignore the EXCESS OF 1,404,016 would be murder victims, we have LOTS more where THEY come from!
Let's just focus on the poor misunderstood violent thug, their lives are what matters!

Staff
Stacy Moore

Mad Mac, this is your last warning. Please stop criticizing the commenters. You can criticize the substance of the letter; you can criticize the substance of other comments. You are not welcome to criticize the commenters themselves. Thank you.

Mad Mac

Stacy,
I AM criticizing the substance of the letters.
I AM criticizing the substance of other comments.
I AM IN NO WAY criticizing the commenters themselves.
IF I am violating, PLEASE example HOW, so I can STOP!
Thank you.

Mad Mac

Are you saying NOT to use quotes from peoples posts?,
That's the only possible problem I see from my deleted posts.

Staff
Stacy Moore

Mad Mac, in your 1:34 p.m. post you write that you would like to send "ACP," your name for the person you're arguing with, to confront violent criminals and you will post the video to YouTube when law enforcement is finished with it. You then post a laughing face. The implication is clearly that there is a good chance she will be hurt and you would like to pay for it to happen.

A 9:11 a.m. post that was removed was entirely addressed to that commenter and your problems with her.

Yesterday, you posted two comments that were only about that commenter. That was the only subject: her.

On July 27 you wrote that another person's comments showed there was something wrong mentally with him and you wanted to call the cops to go to his house.

On July 26 you implied the same poster had schizophrenia or another mental disorder in two separate posts (removed).

On July 24, addressing another commenter, you wrote, SHAME ON YOU...! Shame, shame, SHAME!" and wrote a very long comment about how bad she is at her job.

This is why you are now banned.

BBB

Mad Mac's ACP probably refers to a .45 caliber round being fired from an automatic Colt pistol.
The famous Colt .45 replaced the .38 caliber pistol used by the armed forces after the Philippine-American War 1899-1902. The Army issue .38 couldn't drop the Moro warriors. The Army also started using waterboarding during this war.

MM's rabid support of gun rights borders on the macabre. How many more mass killings by the unbalanced will this country endure before meaningful handgun and background check reforms are put in place?

Protect OUR Constitution

My over 90 Mom has my permission to post this under my name, because I agree with her 100% (not JUST because I'm a "Mama's boy", even tho I PROUDLY AM!)
Please keep comments to my Mom civil.


Heres my opinion so now Ill be banned to.

You are wrong Stacy. Really really wrong.

And I think you know it.

And it's not the first time.

Ive been reading madmacs posts for months.


Why did you twist his posts challanging another persons facts?

Madmac never said anything personal.

He just turned all the insults back onto people. Thats all.

And that was funny and served them right for being mean.

He never wished harm on anybody here, even after Kid was so nasty.

Why are you banning so many posters with diferent opinions backed up by facts?

Why are you banning the truth?

Why do you let some people you like say really bad stuff and get away with it but you ban people you dont like?

Everybody should go here to see what you are doing
http://www.vote29.com/newmyblog/free-speech-citizens-banned-hi-desert-star/
Thank God they let people have all kinds of opinions there.


Dont tell me they are violating the rules because that would be a very big lie.

I hope your boss reads this but Im sure youll delete it first.

Ill never buy your paper again.

I guess now you dont like me and now Im banned to.

When Im in Church today Ill pray God makes you tell the truth.

Goodby.

Protect OUR Constitution

Correction because now my Mom is mad, and I'm in trouble.
Almost 89, not over 90.

Sorry Mom.
I love you.

Localyokel

This is getting weird .

ipsofacto

I have a granddaughter who is in the flaming prepubescent stage of life and literally exists on her iPhone and Apple laptop. Her frequent messages to me are loaded with emoticons and capitalization of every verb or adjective or subject she feels a need to emphasize. Now and then, she forwards an email from one of her friends. Same style.

Do I see a parallel in any of the comments preceding this? Yes. But it’s from an adult, I assume. And it possesses a frothing-at-he-mouth style that no 12-year old, normal, non-medicated youngster could be guilty of.

The adult I make note of is clearly obsessed with his (?) subject. I get the impression that he is rolling steel balls in one hand as he types his puerile rants. And becomes agitated when others ignore his questions. Like the captain on the USN cargo ship “Reluctant”.

SOME people are INCAPABLE or civil and rational DEBATE on CONTROVERTIAL topics.
(I'd put an angry-face emoticon here if I knew how.)

Amanda Alsoomse

Diane,
Sorry I called you Donna, I apologize for my error.

I want to let you know that if you have a CCW, which it sounds like you might, please, if you have a brassiere holster for your concealed firearm - be careful!! If you use a bra holster, you might want a trigger lock on your firearm to protect yourself and those near you. Here is a link to the sad story of a woman with her CCW and the problems that can accompany a brassiere holster.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mich-woman-fatally-shoots-adjusting-bra-holster-article-1.2120445

In brief, "A Michigan woman was trying to adjust her bra holster when she shot herself in the face, authorities said.

Christina Bond, 55, was repositioning the handgun inside her brassiere when she looked down and fired a round into her eye, the Kalamazoo Gazette reported Wednesday.

"She was having trouble adjusting her bra holster, couldn't get it to fit the way she wanted it to," said St. Joseph Public Safety Director Mark Clapp.

"She was looking down at it and accidentally discharged the weapon," he said.

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